Latino Racism - A Global View with Carlos Caballero!

This is The ARCC of Change with Donzel Leggett, a podcast from the Anti-Racism Commitment Coalition (ARCC), an organization dedicated to eradicating racism and hate and spreading anti-racism. Listen as Donzel talks about relevant topics that will inspire you and help build your capability to take action and change the world. Because none of us are doing enough as long as racism still exists. And now, here's your host, Donzel Leggett.

Donzel: Hello, and welcome to the ninth episode of Season Two of The ARCC of Change with Donzel Leggett. In this episode, we commemorate National Hispanic Heritage Month with the second and final part of a two-part series. We welcome ARCC Board Member and very close friend Carlos Caballero to share his lived experience as a Hispanic immigrant in the United States, as well as his deep global perspective through powerful, insightful stories. He also shares his experiences standing up, speaking out, and taking action to spread anti-racism—experiences that will both challenge and inspire you to do the same. Now, let's get started with our show.

So, I am Donzel Leggett, host of The ARCC of Change podcast and founder of the Anti-Racism Commitment Coalition, or ARCC. Our vision at ARCC is to build a racism-free world. Our mission is to provide inspiration, education, and support for you to transform, practice, and spread anti-racism.

This begins with our three-step process for personally transforming to anti-racism. The first step is erasing your ignorance about racism and hate. The second step is educating yourself about anti-racism. And the third step is all about building the character and confidence to stand up, speak out, and take action to spread anti-racism and anti-hate and make positive change happen.

This episode is Part Two and the final part of our two-part series honoring and commemorating National Hispanic Heritage Month in the United States, which began on September 15, 2022, and ends on October 15, 2022.

National Hispanic Heritage Month was created to celebrate the histories, cultures, and contributions of American citizens whose ancestors came from Spain, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central and South America. It was also intended to help increase awareness and appreciation of Hispanic and Latino Americans and their contributions to the overall American population, as well as to foster greater community and pride within the Hispanic community. All of this was intended to increase understanding and awareness of these contributions, helping to reduce and ultimately eliminate racism and discrimination against those in the Latino community.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned in Part One, 54 years after National Hispanic Heritage Month was established, many in the Hispanic and Latino communities still face significant racism, discrimination, bias, and hate. And, as I also mentioned in Episode Eight, this comes not only from non-Hispanics but, most notably, from within the Hispanic and Latino community as well.

Studies in the United States have shown that Hispanics and Latinos face as much racism and discrimination from within their own community as they do from non-Hispanics. This bias and racism are most often based on three factors, in order:

First, colorism—discrimination against people based on the darkness of their skin.

Second, country of origin—discriminating against or looking down on people based on their country of origin or where they're from.

Third, assimilation—the extent to which Hispanics assimilate into American culture, or more specifically, white American culture, and whether they are discriminated against for doing so or for not doing so.

Although these studies are specific to the United States, there is no reason to think that this same type of racism and bias does not exist outside the United States. It does. It exists in the Latino community in Central and South America. It exists in the Latino community in Europe. Outside the United States and abroad, assimilation and country of origin may not be as significant, but colorism continues to be a major driver of racism and bias within the Latino community. Whether you're in Latin America—Central or South America or the Caribbean—or, believe it or not, in Europe, these are complex issues to understand. But it's very important that we do the work to understand them so we can stand up, speak out, and take action during, but most importantly, after, Hispanic Heritage Month.

Over these two special episodes, we have strived to explore these issues and understand them in more detail. To do this, we welcomed two special guests who could provide strong insight from their personal experiences and perspectives on why it's so important to spread anti-racism in the Hispanic community now more than ever—and what we must do to make that happen right now.

In Part One, published on September 21, 2022, our special guest was ARCC member Leslie Rodriguez. Leslie shared her experiences growing up and coming of age in the United States as a first-generation immigrant. She also provided her views on what needs to change, both inside and outside the Hispanic and Latino community, to start spreading anti-racism right now. If you haven't listened to the episode with Leslie, please check it out. Episode Eight is fantastic.

Today's episode will be just as fantastic. I anticipate it will be very inspirational. In this second and final part of our two-part series, our special guest is ARCC Board Member and my very close friend, Carlos Caballero, who came to the United States in the 1980s as a college student from Honduras in Central America.

Carlos is an outstanding and outspoken leader with lived experience as a Hispanic immigrant who came to the United States knowing very little about the country or its culture. He didn't even speak a word of English. Since then, he has lived, traveled, or worked literally all over the world—Central America, South America, North America, the Caribbean, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Carlos has been there, led there, worked there, and experienced life there. He can provide a very unique and deep global perspective. He also has powerful and insightful stories about his experiences standing up, speaking out, and taking action to spread anti-racism globally. These stories will move you, challenge you, and, yes, inspire you to do the same. Carlos Caballero is next.

The ARCC of Change podcast is brought to you by the Anti-Racism Commitment Coalition. Visit us at joinarcc.org to learn more about ARCC and join our movement.

Donzel: All right, welcome back to The ARCC of Change with Donzel Leggett. I'm here with a very, very special guest.

This is, again, Part Two of our interview honoring National Hispanic Heritage Month here in the United States. Our first interview was with Leslie Rodriguez, which aired in mid-September. This is Part Two, and it's with one of my very best friends. He's like a brother—mi hermano—Carlos Caballero.

Carlos was one of the very first people to volunteer and join ARCC. He joined our Board of Directors and has helped provide great strategic direction for us. Carlos is also a co-producer, along with Leslie and a few others, of our ARCC of Change Deep Dive talk show, which I mentioned last episode. If you haven't watched The Deep Dive, please check it out. Visit us at joinarcc.org. That's J-O-I-N-A-R-C-C dot org. You can access it through our "Take Action" drop-down menu. Under "Videos," you'll find past shows. You can also check out "Events" to see when the next big Deep Dive event will take place.

I'm so excited to have Carlos on the show. He has incredible skills, stories, perspectives, and information to share on our topic today.

So, Carlos, welcome to The ARCC of Change.

Carlos: Muchas gracias, Donzel. Your words make me feel so humbled. You know, mi hermano, what binds our relationship is that we share common values. And certainly, now we're bound together in the ever-present need to fight racism across the world.

Thank you so much for the invitation, especially during what is called Hispanic Heritage Month in the United States. It's always a good time to sit back and reflect on where we are and what's happening around us. But the sad part is that events remind us every day that we still have a long way to go across the world.

As I was preparing for this conversation, I thought about an event here in Barcelona, Spain, where I now live. Barcelona is my wife's hometown.

There was an event here that reminded me that racism shows up everywhere. It will probably resonate with many Latin Americans listening to this conversation, or even with people who like football—or, as we call it in the United States, soccer.

There was a big derby, a rivalry game, between two famous teams from Madrid, the capital of Spain: Real Madrid and Atlético de Madrid. Before the game, a young player from Brazil named Vinícius was the subject of racist comments. He's a fantastic player. He scored the final goal for Real Madrid to win its 14th European Cup. Real Madrid is the only team to have won it 14 times.

He's a fantastic player who reminds a lot of people of the great Pelé because of the way he plays, with such joy for the game. You know, what we call regatear in Spanish, which means dribbling. He has this wonderful persona.

There was a television commentator on a famous Spanish show who started saying that his dancing was provocative and showed a lack of respect for his opponents. The commentator went on to say that this player should go back to his country. He also said that Vinícius was acting like a monkey, referring to his African descent.

What you saw in the press was a lot of people coming out in support of Vinícius. In fact, there was a big campaign saying, "Keep dancing, Vinícius. Keep dancing." The Real Madrid team said it would take legal action against people attacking its players with racist abuse. That was great.

But on the day of the game, hundreds of people supporting the other team chanted, "Vinícius, you're a monkey." It became a major topic in the Spanish news and public conversation because, no matter where we think we are, racism exists.

I was really encouraged in some ways because, as I said, there was a big campaign with the hashtag "Vinícius, Keep Dancing." The team also took a stand by announcing legal action. But that's not enough. It's not enough to point out what's happening or say that the other team cannot control its fans, or that fans have the right to chant whatever they want. Spain has a law against hate. We need to stand up. Don't just be sympathetic and say, "Poor Vinícius." Do something about it.

As I thought about this story, I was reminded that Vinícius is not just a story. He's a person who is fighting racism, and he's doing it fantastically. He fought back and said, "I'm going to keep dancing." He also gave a fantastic pass that led to a goal. He played miraculously. That's one way to fight racism: be proud of who you are, keep dancing, keep playing, and keep having joy. They cannot win.

That story also reminded me of my own experiences growing up. Some memories are good, and some are bad. All of them make us stronger.

I first immigrated to the United States. I'm a proud Honduran, and I went to study in Texas with the sacrifice and support of my family.

Donzel: Was this around 1980 or 1981, just to give us some perspective?

Carlos: Yes, it was in the 1980s.

At that time, I didn't know much about the United States. I knew some of its history and had seen some of its press. I knew the United States had a big influence on Latin America—some good, some terrible, and some in between. But I had also seen the United States Constitution, which I found inspiring. The idea that all men are created equal and should be treated equally attracted me to the country.

But I remember that when I arrived and started studying in Texas and learning English, I began hearing things. One thing I noticed right away was that it was the first place where someone asked me about my race. I needed to write down what my race was.

At first, I didn't understand the reason behind it. I didn't understand the history of discrimination in the United States or the laws that had been enacted to protect people when they applied to rent a place or access other opportunities. That realization came later. I began to understand that this was something different.

Thinking about where I came from, I had assumed Americans were all part of one country and that everybody was equal. That was the first myth that disappeared almost immediately.

But it also reminded me that racism was part of the places I came from in Latin America, too. We still have racism in our countries. People are treated differently based on skin color. If you're lighter-skinned, you may be able to claim ancestors who came from Europe, from Spain or Italy. Social status and money also count in Latin America. You may be my color—I'm mestizo—but if you have money and education, people will treat you differently than they would if you were poor and uneducated.

One experience I remember happened when we had a soccer league at the university. We played against different teams. My team had a lot of Hondurans, people from other Latin American countries, and some others.

I remember one game got heated. The referee wasn't controlling the game, and there was a small altercation with players from the other team. They were Bolivian, but they were white Bolivians.

Later, I found out that their last names were German, so they probably had ancestors who came from Germany. Many Latin American countries received European immigrants, especially around World War II.

During the game, when I was fighting for the ball against one of those players, his insult wasn't that I was a dirty player, a bad player, or a slow player. His insult was, "You're an Indian"—Indio.

That was his insult. You can see that even in our own countries in Latin America, the stain of racism is still with us. We both spoke Spanish, and we were both international students. He thought that by using the word Indio, he could hurt me. He was using racist language to hurt me.

That story about Vinícius brought me back to that day when I was 17 years old. I wasn't fully aware of the racism underlying all of this until I came to the United States. That's when I began learning more and more.

Another story that fascinated me involved a singer who younger generations may not know. Her name is Linda Ronstadt. She's an American from California.

Donzel: Linda Ronstadt, you said?

Carlos: Yes. You've probably heard some of her famous songs, like "Born in the U.S.A." She's a great singer, one of the greatest. But many people don't know that her family is Mexican and that she has Mexican ancestors.

I didn't know that at the time. I learned about her because she performed a concert after I graduated from university and started my first job in manufacturing in El Paso, Texas. It wasn't a rock music concert. It was called Canciones de Mi Padre.

It was a concert honoring the heritage of her parents and grandparents—Mexicans in California. She explained that California schools hadn't allowed her family to speak or learn Spanish. Speaking Spanish was considered something associated with being a second-class citizen.

Those beautiful songs had been passed down to her by her grandmother, her uncles, and other family members at home. Nobody can take away what you learn and experience in your own home.

Donzel: So she said—

Carlos: She spoke Spanish and learned to sing those beautiful songs because of her family's traditions. That tells you that the struggle experienced by Hispanics, Latinos, and Latinx people is real. It's a struggle between identities. Are we Americans? How do other people see us?

I saw these things while I was being educated in the United States. The Hispanic community struggles with colorism. People are treated differently depending on whether they're lighter-skinned, darker-skinned, or Black.

In Latin America, Honduras has a strong population of African descent called the Garifuna. I remember playing soccer and hearing people say, "Those Hondurans are Africans." When you look at our team, you see people with my skin color, people who are brown, but also many people of African descent. They're all Hondurans.

Colorism is everywhere. It's in Latin America, and it's even within the Hispanic community in the United States. I see it as a struggle both within the community and outside it.

We need to stand up, talk about these issues, and educate ourselves so we can become better agents for change. If we don't change ourselves first, it's hard to speak to others with any real value.

Another story involves a sports broadcaster who was also the president of the Honduran Federation. He went to a qualifying match against El Salvador for the 1970 World Cup in Mexico City. In the 1950s, El Salvador had laws forbidding Black people from immigrating to the country.

Donzel: Yes. In fact, I was doing some research, and many Central and South American countries had similar policies around that time. They restricted immigration from Black people. If you were Black Jamaican, Haitian, or from somewhere else, they stopped you from entering. They were actually recruiting more Europeans to come in and help whiten the nation. El Salvador wasn't the only one.

Carlos: Exactly. My father told me about the insults and hatred directed at Honduran players who were Black. There was even the potential for violence against them during those games.

All of these experiences make a big impression. We went through many things. If you're aware, if you listen, and if you stop to reflect, that's when you begin to understand: Who are we? How do people see us? How do we see other people? What stereotypes do we use against others, even within our own community?

Those are some of the things I remember from when I first arrived.

And certainly, when you talk about people of color, I have another story. My wife is European; she's from Spain. She's white and brunette.

After working in a factory in Texas, I received a major promotion and moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota. It was a big promotion, and I was very happy and proud. I had a family and two daughters, and we moved together.

We needed to buy a new car in Minneapolis. I had heard that Minneapolis was a very progressive city, so I thought, "Okay, let's go there and figure it out."

This story will tell you everything about stereotypes and how people use color to make decisions.

We went to a car dealership. I won't use the name of the dealership because we're on your program, but after this incident, I never looked at that brand of car the same way again. My wife liked that brand, so we went to the showroom.

It was a big showroom, and we separated while looking at different cars. I was looking at minivans and other types of cars. There were several salespeople working in the showroom.

I approached one salesperson, but he didn't seem interested in helping me. He seemed busy. Perhaps he didn't see me as an ideal customer because I was Latino and brown.

I asked him, "Excuse me, can you help me? We're looking for a car."

He said, "Okay, what car do you like?"

I told him I liked a particular sedan and asked if we could test-drive it. We had heard that we could test-drive a car if we provided our driver's licenses.

Donzel: You give them your driver's license, and then you can test-drive the car. That's right.

Carlos: He told me, "That's the only car available. It's the one in the showroom. I can take it around here."

I said, "Oh, okay."

Then my wife approached from the other side of the showroom with another salesperson.

Donzel: Your wife is lighter-skinned because she's European.

Carlos: Exactly. She came over with another salesperson and said, "Hey, Carlos, we're going to go and try this car."

Donzel: The same car? The exact same car?

Carlos: The same car, on the same lot.

Donzel: Wow.

Carlos: I knew what was happening, so we stopped. I thought, "I don't know what's in this person's heart, but this action speaks to discrimination—whether based on color, race, or because he perceived me as an immigrant." I don't know for sure, but I believe it was because of my color. It was pure discrimination.

There was another dealership across the street, one of that dealership's competitors. We went there and bought a car. Then we drove it back and parked it in front of the dealership where I had been rejected.

Donzel: So you drove back to the other dealership and parked the car so they could see it.

Carlos: I even bought it that same day. Maybe I didn't get the best deal because I was upset, but I wanted to take action. I was going to use the power I had that day, which was the power of money.

We need to take action, and I did. I explained the situation to the manager. He came out while I was parked there, and I told him what his salesperson had done. I said I wanted to see what the dealership was going to do about it.

The manager apologized. He also knew I worked for a large company because, when we moved, they provided us with pre-approvals for cars and houses. I told him he had a choice to make. I had decided not to invest in a place that didn't have a clear policy requiring everyone to be treated properly, regardless of how they looked or the color of their skin.

That's my mission. I want to see people treated fairly.

That happened a long time ago, back in the 1990s. This isn't new to me. It's just another example of how, despite the progress I've seen, we're still facing the same issues.

My message to the Hispanic community is that we first need to recognize that even within our own community, we have stereotypes. We need to recognize that we can be racist toward other people, that we need to grow, and that we need to accept our role in being part of the solution.

I'll tell you one last story about soccer. I was watching a game with my family, all Latin Americans. One player on our team missed the ball and didn't score. He made a terrible play.

Everyone in the stadium, including members of my family, started insulting him by using the word "Black" as an insult. They were essentially saying, "Black, terrible."

Donzel: Right. They used the player's race as the insult.

Carlos: Exactly. I asked them, "If the player were white, would you say, 'White, bad one'? You wouldn't use that. You're using 'Black' as an insult."

We had a big argument because they told me, "No, Carlos. In Latin America, we don't have that. It's just an expression."

I said, "It's not just an expression. You could have said he was a terrible player. Why did you have to use the word 'Black'? You wouldn't say that to someone who was brown or someone who was white."

That's education. And, as you know, I'm comfortable having these conversations because I love these people. But you still need to have the conversation.

Donzel: You have to have that conversation.

Carlos: Today, I've talked a lot about soccer, but it's because these stories show us things that happen every day. Sometimes we're guilty of acting that way. Other times, we don't recognize what's happening, or we don't want to recognize it. And sometimes we simply don't do anything about it. We let it go because it's easy. It wasn't my family, so I'll let it go. I'll go have another beer and some good sopa de caracol or something like that.

But we cannot let it go, because then we become part of the problem. We can address it in a way that comes from love.

Donzel: That's great, Carlos. The thing I love about your stories is that in every one of them, you're talking about what you did to stand up, speak out, and take action.

That's the only thing that's going to change racist beliefs and hateful beliefs: someone has to confront them. There are different ways to confront people. You don't always have to be aggressive, as you showed with your family. You still took the opportunity to challenge them in a loving way and make sure they understood that what they were saying was wrong and perpetuating racism.

That's what so many of our listeners really need to understand. Thank you for telling us these stories and immediately explaining what you did. You drove the car back to the dealership that racially profiled you and talked to the manager about the lost sale. You made sure he understood that you knew other people with money who could either avoid the dealership or give it another chance, depending on how he responded to you.

I thought that was right on point with what we're all about at ARCC.

Carlos: Exactly. I think that's what ARCC is all about: moving from saying, "I'm not a racist," to actually being anti-racist.

Even today, when I was listening to the Spanish media discuss the incident, a lot of people were saying, "We're not racist in Spain." They're dismissing what happened. But, as one person said, Spain has a law on the books. We just need the courage to apply it and make a change. Spanish law already recognizes this.

That's one of the things I've learned through my different assignments. I've been fortunate to work in multiple countries during my 33-year professional career. I was able to see how things work in different places and learn a little bit from each country. You can't become a master of everything or know everything, but you can observe and learn.

One of those assignments, Donzel, was in a country that had one of the most atrocious systems of racism in recent history: South Africa under apartheid.

Donzel: Yes.

Carlos: Apartheid ended with Mandela coming out of prison and becoming the first elected Black president of South Africa. The country began its transition toward becoming what Mandela called the Rainbow Nation.

I was assigned there around 2004. The country was still going through a lot of pain. This new democracy represented a tremendous change. Black South Africans had been treated as less than human in their own country. They couldn't drink from the same water fountains or sit on the same benches. There were separate education systems. We know about the apartheid government.

I was there observing this major change and seeing how people were dealing with it. Now, by law, everybody was equal under the law. Many laws were put in place to try to make that change work.

It was a tipping point. Would South Africa succeed as a democracy? Would it continue to live up to the values Mandela wanted to create with the Rainbow Nation? What would happen?

One thing that caught my attention was a commission sponsored by Nelson Mandela and chaired by Desmond Tutu. You're talking about two Nobel Prize laureates and two courageous, tremendous leaders.

Mandela asked Desmond Tutu to chair the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. As the name suggests, the commission was designed to bring people together through a process in which they could tell their stories and find ways to move forward. It started with the truth. That was the first part of the commission's name: truth.

What really happened? What were the impacts? What damage and violence were done during the apartheid government? People needed to recognize what they had done wrong and acknowledge the harm.

I think it was crucial. Without that process, South Africa might not be the democratic country it is today.

It brings to mind what we need in all our countries and throughout our histories. What I saw, and what I still see today in the United States, is a lack of focus on the truth. What is the truth? What were the laws and systems? What damage was done? We need to recognize that first, particularly the damage done to Black South Africans over generations—millions and millions of lives affected for years and years, and even today.

We need to tell that story. If we tell it, we can find ways to improve and make sure we don't repeat it.

But what I see in countries like the United States is that people often want to tell a different story. The Civil War is one example. When I learned about it in Texas, it was presented as being about states' rights and civil rights.

Donzel: Yes.

Carlos: When you challenge professors and ask, "What about slavery?" they say, "No, no, that's secondary. First, it's about states' rights."

That's the problem: the story lacks detail and doesn't tell the whole truth.

Donzel: Exactly. And I think that's going to continue to hold our societies back from reconciliation.

Carlos: Correct. Reconciliation is going to be difficult if we don't start with the truth.

Donzel: And, of course, we're going backwards.

We're going backwards right now with some of these governors, like those in Texas and Florida, who are trying to take the truth out of schools. They don't want to talk about racism. They don't want to talk about LGBTQ issues. Teachers can't even talk about the truth, which is unbelievable and sad.

Carlos: Exactly. I think that's what's going to hold us back. Let's start with the truth.

Going back to Vinícius, this wasn't about a player dancing. It wasn't because he danced or because someone thought he looked like a monkey. Those terms were used because people wanted to direct racist insults at him, denigrate him, and humiliate him. It could even lead to violence, as we saw happening.

How do we fix it? How do we reconcile? That's one of the big lessons I took from my time in South Africa. I saw a country that had suffered tremendous violence for generations. The transition wasn't easy when I was there between 2004 and 2008.

But I have hope. One picture that remains in my mind is from a place I visited. Imagine that picture today: people sitting at different tables. There was a table with only white South Africans, a table with only Black South Africans, and a table with South Africans of Indian descent. Many people of Indian origin had come to Africa during British rule.

They were all in the same place, but they were sitting separately. You didn't see many people mixing. But if you went back to the years before that, in 2004, that picture wouldn't even have existed. It would have been only white South Africans in that place. So there was progress.

Donzel: There's progress. But—

Carlos: Then, when I went to a restaurant with my wife and my young teenage daughters, I saw hope. There were tons of kids in the mall. You see those pictures, and they bring you hope. That probably would have been unimaginable during apartheid. At the beginning, you could still see the divisions, but things were changing.

Donzel: There are a number of people who would say, "Yes, but South Africa still isn't great. It has a lot of corruption and a lot of problems."

Well, yes, it does. But the country is only about 30 years into its new democracy. The country that existed before wasn't really a country in the sense of an equal society. It was a system based on segregation and injustice, designed to subjugate the majority of the population and make them second-class citizens—not even human in some cases, to your point.

When that changed, the country began a new chapter. It's only been about 30 years.

I remember the pictures of South Africa. I remember Mandela being in prison. When you think about what the country was like in the 1980s and early 1990s, and compare that to the changes and progress made since then, it's significant.

Yes, it's not perfect. But many of the countries we compare it to have been around for 300, 400, or 500 years, and they're not perfect either. As you just said, Spain has been around for 500 years, and it's not perfect.

So it's great to see the progress South Africa has made over such a short period of time. Thanks for that perspective. That's great.

Carlos: I think what I see is progress. In Spain, you have laws, right? Just like in Brazil, racism is considered a crime. These are countries that recognize racism as a crime. But it's difficult to move from what's written in a book to what happens in real life.

When I was in the United States, racism felt much more in your face. It was something you could encounter almost every day. I had many experiences.

There's also a big push to honor diversity, but diversity is defined by whoever has the power to define it. And that's a challenge.

It goes back to the Latinx and Hispanic communities and the struggle to become fully recognized as part of the United States. Some people don't consider Hispanics to be from here. They ask, "Where are you from?" even when people have lived here forever.

Take the Alamo in Texas. The story is about the heroes of the Alamo and the fight against the Mexican army. You can read the names of the people who were there. But even today, people question where you come from.

My daughters would say, "We're Texans. We were born in El Paso, Texas." They have family heritage from Spain and Latin America, including Honduras, but they're Americans.

Even today, people ask them where they're from. Maybe it doesn't happen as much because they speak English like I do, but people still ask. My daughters have told me stories about experiencing that.

Again, it's about standing up. One of my daughters told me about an experience at a famous university in Massachusetts. She was watching a television show with friends. Most of the people there were Caucasian—white Americans. My daughter was one of the few Latinas there, studying science. Unfortunately, we don't send enough people into science, especially Latinos and Latinas.

During the show, people said negative things about immigrants, calling them criminals and saying they weren't bringing the best people to the United States.

My daughter said, "But those are Latin Americans. That's me. That's my heritage."

Donzel: She stood up and said something, which is great.

Carlos: But the response was, "You're educated. You're not one of them."

She said, "No, I'm one of them."

I think that's part of what we need to do. I'm one of them. We are all one of them.

Just because you're now in a progressive city, you're educated, or you attend a big university doesn't mean you're different from other people. We're all people with dreams. We want to make life better for our families, help our children grow up, and contribute to society. It's just that people come from different situations and circumstances.

I think the Hispanic community does itself a great disservice when it thinks that way. We're closing our doors to others. And I believe that division is being deliberately encouraged.

Donzel: All right, we're going to stop the first half of our interview with Carlos Caballero right there. Please stick around. We're going to come right back with the second half of the interview.

All right, we're back now with Part Two of our great interview with Carlos Caballero, our ARCC Board Member and co-producer of The ARCC Deep Dive. Carlos provided some outstanding perspective in the first half of the interview.

Carlos, as we start the second half, I'm wondering about something within the Hispanic community in the United States. There doesn't seem to be 100% support for immigrants who are still coming in from Latin America, even though some members of the Hispanic community are first-, second-, or maybe even third-generation immigrants themselves.

There does seem to be a bias or rejection toward these newer immigrants. You don't hear a lot of outspoken criticism about Ron DeSantis sending a busload of Latina immigrants from Florida all the way to Martha's Vineyard. The governor of Texas did the same thing.

What's your view, knowing that you were a recent immigrant yourself? You had to face a lot of challenges from outside the community. What are your thoughts on what's going on within the Hispanic community in the United States regarding this issue?

Carlos: Yeah, I think it's a complex issue, for sure. There are many factors that make it complex.

One is that even within Latin America, we're different. The way we speak and our accents are different. Some of our experiences are different. You would think that when all of us come to a country like the United States, we would become more united as a community. And you do see aspects of that.

But lately, what I see is more fragmentation and groups being pitted against each other. And I think that's part of the strategy: divide and conquer.

They're trying to turn communities against each other. It's a big political issue, and they're using things that are important to our communities. Many Hispanic communities are very religious, with Christian and Catholic traditions. Those beliefs are being used to polarize the Hispanic community.

Another issue is that groups in power benefit when people fight among themselves. That's how they stay in power. They create a false narrative that new immigrants are coming in and taking jobs or opportunities away from people who immigrated here before them.

I see a lot of that. To me, it's a deliberate political move, especially by one of the parties in the United States. They're also using old ideas about communism and socialism to create division and noise. They want to make sure we don't see ourselves as a unified community.

We forget that many of the gains Hispanic communities enjoy today were fought for by immigrants who came before us. Strong labor unions fought for rights that benefit many people in the Hispanic community today.

So I think this division is a problem. It's designed to create false narratives.

At the end of the day, the history of immigration is something we're trying to forget. When people tell you, "Those immigrants are going to take your jobs," what they're really saying is, "You're lucky you have what you have, so close the door to everyone else."

Maybe some groups think that because they've already been here for a while, they're now considered Americans. But I can tell you that the same people pushing immigrants to Martha's Vineyard might go to Mississippi and tell those same people, "We're going to send you back to Mexico or Cuba."

They're forgetting that all people are created equal and that the United States is a country of immigrants. The Hispanic community has made many contributions to the United States, including contributions to social justice and the fight for civil rights. Hispanic leaders have worked alongside other historically discriminated-against groups.

Think about Martin Luther King Jr. There were many Hispanic leaders who supported him and were his friends. People remember that Martin Luther King Jr. fought not only against racial injustice but also for workers' rights.

For the Hispanic community, that's what I would emphasize. It connects back to what I told you about my daughter: they're not separate from us. They are us. They are me.

Just because we're here in a progressive city, we're educated, or we attend a big university doesn't mean we're different. I'm them. I'm the same person, with dreams and hopes of making life better for my family and helping my children grow up and contribute to society. People simply come from different circumstances and situations.

I think the Hispanic community does itself a great disservice by thinking that way. We're closing our doors to others. And I believe this division is being deliberately driven to make sure it continues.

Donzel: Yeah, I think that's a great perspective, Carlos. Leveraging religion to drive divisions, and saying immigrants are going to come and take your jobs—those are ways to create division.

I wonder if there's another factor. Many of these newer immigrants are coming from south of the border or from the Caribbean. In Florida, immigrants used to come mainly from Cuba. Obviously, many people also came from Mexico. But now, a lot of immigrants are coming from Central and South America.

Many of the people bused from Florida to Martha's Vineyard, I think, were Guatemalan. I'm wondering whether this also connects to race. As you get into Guatemala, Bolivia, El Salvador, and other parts of Central and South America, you see more people who are not just mestizo but who may look more Indigenous or have darker skin. They're not as light-skinned.

I wonder if it's sometimes easier for people who have been here longer to say, "They're not us. They look different." As you said, when we use the word Hispanic, we're talking about people from dozens of countries—probably close to 20 or more. Just because they speak the same language doesn't mean they have everything in common.

I wonder whether colorism, appearance, and the history of our countries play a role in this, too.

Carlos: For sure. I think that plays a part, even in Latin America itself.

Unfortunately, our countries developed through colonial periods and through these divisions. We learned to fight against each other.

Some of the most important heroes of Latin America, like Simón Bolívar and Francisco Morazán in Central America, wanted to create a united region. They wanted to bring the countries together under one flag and one constitution. But they didn't succeed. Morazán wanted to do something similar in Central America.

I think we carry some of those divisions with us.

But when we come to a new country, we should bring the values of Latin Americans: curiosity, a joyful approach to life, and creativity. Those strong values should help us fight against these divisions.

As I said before, in the soccer story, the person who insulted me didn't call me a dirty player or a bad player. He called me an Indian. We were both new to the United States, but he already carried that baggage with him.

So those attitudes still exist. But I think what's happening in the United States is more about political division than simply a color issue. In Latin America, Brazilians and Argentinians might joke about each other because of soccer or their World Cup dominance. Those are things we can overcome. But what's happening in the United States has more to do with a political divide that's being encouraged to keep people separated.

Donzel: And that connects to systems that are already in place. It's an age-old strategy used by colonialists and imperialists. A small group wants to stay in power and dominate a much larger group of people. How do they do that? They separate people based on something—color, religion, or anything else—and make everyone want to be more like them.

By doing that, they get people to fight against each other and become like crabs in a barrel, pulling each other down. It's an age-old tactic that imperialists and colonialists have used.

Carlos: It's an age-old tactic, and it continues to be successful. But I think it continues to be successful because we need to start by asking ourselves: What are our true values? Why don't we value each person as an individual and stand up for that?

Look at the example of this terrible governor pushing people around and stripping them of their dignity to make a political point.

But if you go to the border in Texas, you also find many people who want to help immigrants start a new life. That's the Hispanic community at its best.

You also find people working to help new Americans integrate. In Miami, for example, there are centers for refugees and people dedicated to helping immigrants. The Catholic Church is very involved in that work.

I was part of a group in Minneapolis that worked with a refugee and immigrant center. They helped people learn English, enroll their children in school, and even learn how to ride a bus or deal with the snow. It was a Catholic organization.

That's what I see. I see hope despite these issues. I believe the Hispanic community still has a lot to say about making a better world and a better United States.

Donzel: That's great, Carlos. Thank you so much. I'm going to give you one last opportunity. Is there any message you'd like to leave our audience with? What's the key thing you want them to remember from this great interview?

Carlos: I think what I would say to people is: let's become comfortable being uncomfortable.

Conversations about becoming anti-racist aren't easy for anybody. They're not easy to have with your family, your friends, or your network.

I grew by having these conversations and facing my own stereotypes. I continue to face them and try to become better. I learn every time.

So educate yourself. And, by the way, don't change who you are. When I was a leader in organizations, people would tell me, "Carlos, they brought me here because I'm Hispanic or Latina. They brought me to this corporate headquarters, but now they want me to look more like their picture."

I told them, "No. Don't change."

Donzel: They want you to assimilate.

Carlos: Exactly. Don't change your desire to help others. Be yourself. In that process, educate yourself and keep becoming more comfortable with being uncomfortable.

And when you see something wrong, take action. Like I did when I parked my car in front of the dealership after that person treated me unfairly. Use the power you have to make a difference.

Keep getting better. The reason I've been able to improve is that I keep learning in everything I do.

Don't lose your essence as Hispanics and Latinx people. Be part of your communities. Make our communities better, and make them anti-racist.

Donzel: Fantastic, Carlos. Thank you so much, my friend, my brother. I'm sure anyone who listens to this podcast will be inspired— inspired to take on the challenge of becoming anti-racist and actually standing up, speaking out, and taking action, just as you have done and continue to do to help change the world and eradicate racism.

Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your afternoon, Carlos—or evening, since you're still in Spain.

Carlos: You too, Donzel. Gracias, hermano. Thanks for the opportunity.

To all the ARCC members and those listening: at the end of the day, we'll create a better world. It will take time, but when you see the struggles and understand where we're coming from, you know the fight will be won.

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